Professor Ning Li has spent decades at the intersection of energy, technology and industrial strategy. A nuclear engineer, complexity scientist and founding Dean of the School of Energy at Xiamen University, he is also credited with coining the term &quot;Small Modular Reactor&quot; nearly 20 years ago. In this wide-ranging conversation with Bryony Worthington, Ning Li explains why China has weathered recent global energy shocks better than many expected, how electrification is transforming economic resilience, and why solar panels, batteries and electric vehicles have become China&#x27;s most important exports. They explore whether the world is really swapping dependence on fossil fuels for dependence on Chinese electrotech, why modularity has become the defining feature of successful modern technologies, and what lessons other countries can learn from China&#x27;s rapid industrial scaling. The discussion also covers the future of nuclear power, the role of coal in supporting China&#x27;s grid, the untapped potential of heat pumps, and why the energy transition should be framed not as a burden, but as an opportunity for growth. Topics include: Why China has been relatively resilient to oil and gas disruptions The rise of the &quot;electrostate&quot; China&#x27;s new energy exports: EVs, batteries and solar Why modular technologies scale faster The origins of the Small Modular Reactor concept The changing role of coal in China&#x27;s power system Heat pumps and industrial electrification Nuclear power&#x27;s future in China Climate action as economic development Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links: Ning Li bio: https://thebreakthrough.org/people/ning-li Octopus’ Fiona Howarth on the EV partnership with BYD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL64XW5ZRBA

Build Fast, Build Now: How China Became an Energy Superpower | Ep262: Professor Ning Li

Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change

# Full Transcript

**Podcast:** Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change

## Participants

- **Bryony Worthington** (Cleaning Up)
- **Ning Li** (Xiamen University)

## Transcript

China has sort of started preparing for this kind of problem or risk from quite a while back. And so, you know, after this, the Middle East conflict, China was originally sort of reacted quite strongly, limited sort of export of like petroleum products and fertilizer, et cetera, and started using its strategic petroleum reserve.

But it turned out China has sort of diversified its supply and domestically beginning to reduce reliance on petroleum as a fuel source or energy source from several years ago. So the impact was, while it originally was sort of, you know, quite a scare, it turned out to be not much.

Hello, I'm Bryony Worthington and this is Cleaning Up. My guest this week is Professor Ning Li, Dean of the School of Energy Research at Xiamen University. Professor Li and I were together recently at a conference in Beijing focused on the challenge of replacing China's huge fleet of coal stations. And as the disruptions in the global energy system have persisted with the closure of the Strait of Hormuz, I wanted to ask him how this was being viewed in China.

And as he's worked on numerous nuclear power projects in China and is credited with coining the term small modular reactors, I wanted to ask him about the prospects of these ever making it to market. We also touched on China's embrace of modularity and efficiency in its drive for economic development. Trump's recent visit to China and the question of whether people are right to say switching from fossil fuels to Chinese electrotech is really swapping one vulnerability for another.

Please join me in welcoming Professor Ning Li to Cleaning Up. Professor Ning Li, thank you so much for joining me this evening. We are recording on the 30th of May, which is a Saturday for you. And we should probably start by warning our listeners that we might hear some construction sound in the background. That's right, isn't it? But that's because China's busy building things. Subway, a subway station nearby. Okay, and it's got to be done on time.

So they're working on a Saturday. Yes. Sometimes annoying, but I think overall you have to do these things fast. Otherwise, the annoyance just lasts longer. Exactly. Well, China certainly knows how to move fast. So I'm really delighted you could join me, but I wanted to start by asking the question, which we always begin with, which is, could you introduce yourself in your own words, please?

I'm Dr Ning Li, a professor and the founding dean of College of Energy, Xiamen University, in a beautiful sort of coastal city in southern China. And I'm also have been advisor to innovation labs and board of director for public companies in energy and chemical industries.

I was a member of the technical committee of SNPTC, a Chinese nuclear power company that was working with U.S. Wes...

Build Fast, Build Now: How China Became an Energy Superpower | Ep262: Professor Ning Li

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Build Fast, Build Now: How China Became an Energy Superpower | Ep262: Professor Ning Li

Transcript

Built for investment professionals

Every day you wait, your competitors are findingedge in conversations you're not hearing.

Every day you wait, your competitors are finding
edge in conversations you're not hearing.